Quarta-feira, 20 de Agosto de 2008

SUPPORT GEORGIA!

 

 

"Courage is rightly esteemed the first of human qualities... because it is the quality which guarantees all others."
Winston Churchill

 

 

This blog supports GEORGIA / Este blog apoia a GEORGIA

 

ძალა ერთობაშია

 

 

 

“Georgia did not attack Russia, Russia is attacking Georgia. They say they were protecting their citizens but we heard the same argument from Nazi Germany in taking the Sudetenland in 1938. Formally, Russia says it is protecting its citizens but in reality it is beginning a war.”

publicado por sá morais às 13:57
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19 comentários:
De Seraphiel a 20 de Agosto de 2008 às 16:39
I really don't know why anybody should support Georgia. The country is one big US military base. The president is a nutcase being treated with psychiatry many times. Georgia doesn't acknowledge Ossetians for being human. South Ossetia is a nature reserve under planing according to the Georgian government website. As the whole world except the Americans knows, it was Georgia starting the bombing on Tshkinvali. And everybody knows that Russia reacted to that because there were Russians peace-keepers there and all Ossetians living their can only get a Russian passport because the Georgian passports can't be given to animals.


De sá morais a 20 de Agosto de 2008 às 21:37
"The country is one big US military base."

wrong! If they are a US military base where are the american weapons????

That only a cliche...

"As the whole world except the Americans knows"

Many other countries are supporting Georgia! You're wrong again.

"it was Georgia starting the bombing on Tshkinvali."

Because south Ossetia was full of militia armed by the russians

" there were Russians peace-keepers"

We can only call "peace-Keepers" to an independent force in a conflict. The russians where nothing of that kind. They where there defending there interests and getting ready to atack a democratic nation!

"Georgia doesn't acknowledge Ossetians for being human"

Only russian propaganda... Goebbels would have been proud...


De Seraphiel a 21 de Agosto de 2008 às 05:10
"wrong! If they are a US military base where are the american weapons????"
LOL... you didn't know that Georgia buys its weapons from the US, Turky, Ukraine and Israel? You really think Georgia makes weapons themselves? You also don't know that just before the war there was a large military training in Georgia with US troops. The training was called "Rapid response". Do you really think that was for practicing for the war in Iraq???. Do you really think that the increase of the Georgian military budget from 34 million dollars to 1 milliard dollars only means they have peace keeping intentions??? That can only one thing my friend. Georgia preparing for war.

"Many other countries are supporting Georgia! You're wrong again." You are only partially right here. Many countries governments support Georgia. But many of these countries citizens don't. There even was a survey in Germany that stated that the German citizens became more pro russian an more anti american after the start of the war.

"Because south Ossetia was full of militia armed by the russians"
- Wrong. Those are called Russian peace-keepers. The South Ossetian army had a budget of 400 000 dollar. In contrast to Georgia you can hardly call that an army. How many South-Ossetian rocket launchers have you seen? none..... They don't have any.

"We can only call "peace-Keepers" to an independent force in a conflict. The russians where nothing of that kind. They where there defending there interests and getting ready to atack a democratic nation!"
- What the hell did the Georgian peace-keepers do in South Ossetia then? Are you sure they are independent? Didn't Georgia, Russia and FN agreed to have Russian and Georgian peace-keepers in the region?

About south ossetians not being acknowledged... take a tour to the Georgian government website and find out that Souht Ossetia is not on the map. In stead it is a nature reserve.

Looks to me you have heard some flares about all the things happening there, but haven't got a clue what REALLY goes on there.

I rest my case.


De sá morais a 21 de Agosto de 2008 às 14:23
"you didn't know that Georgia buys its weapons from the US, Turky, Ukraine and Israel? You really think Georgia makes weapons themselves?"

LOL and LOL! where did you see those weapons? In dreams? The last time I saw, T-72, BMP's, BTR's were Soviet made!
Israel... they bought 20 rifles... enough to win any war! ahahah!

I think you should learn more about military equipment before saying such nonsense...

"Georgia preparing for war."

Against Russia! A superpower! Yeah! Sure! LOL! suicidal tendences...

"Many countries governments support Georgia. But many of these countries citizens don't."

I garantee that many are supporting Georgia, specially those who suffer at russian hands!
But we dont think all the same way... Thats why even in Russia many people is against Putin.

"a survey in Germany that stated that the German citizens became more pro russian an more anti american after the start of the war."

who made that survey? Pravda?
the germans love the russians, specially since the 40's...


"The South Ossetian army had a budget of 400 000 dollar. "

you mean south ossetia rebel/illegal army...

"What the hell did the Georgian peace-keepers do in South Ossetia then? Are you sure they are independent?"

the georgian forces were in their land, the russian didnt... That´s the diference!

"Souht Ossetia is not on the map. In stead it is a nature reserve. "

Many coutries have reserves... Whats wrong with that?

"Looks to me you have heard some flares about all the things happening there, but haven't got a clue what REALLY goes on there."

Looks to me that you only express an anti-US, anti-west view, repeated time after time... forgetting the REAL events.

I also rest my case.





De Seraphiel a 23 de Agosto de 2008 às 07:03
Just some recent news to read regarding US weapons in Georgia: http://tinyurl.com/6gqnvg
I already know your answer to this one... Russian propaganda from an American news agency. That's fine by me. I wouldn't expect any different.

"War against Russia! A superpower! Yeah! Sure! LOL! suicidal tendences..." - I never wrote that Georgia was planing for war against Russia. You must be seeing ghosts. They were planing for war to take back control over South Ossetia and Abkhazia, like Saakashvili had promised the Georgian people in 2004. He only forgot that there where Russians citizens living there. But in Saakashvili's simple mind, his 'true friends' from the US would help out. Unfortunately he didn't think the whole thing through, because asking the US to fight Russian troops is like starting a bigger crisis. A crisis where all NATO countries would be drawn in to. Do you really think the world thinks Georgia's territorial problems are so important to give up the stability and economic prosperity in western europe and the US? The prove is in the media. When Georgia began shelling Tskhinvali there was focus on Georgians internal conflicts, but as soon as the Russians entered the stage, those territorial conflicts where soon forgotten and there was full focus on Russia against Georgia.



"the georgian forces were in their land, the russian didnt... That´s the diference!"
The Russian peace keeping forces have worked together with the Georigan peace keeping forces under a UN mandate. This means that the interanational community including Georgia accept Russian forces inside Georgian territory for peace keeping purposes. Russia and Georgia have according to the UN also the right to protect their peace keeping forces when necessary.

"Looks to me that you only express an anti-US, anti-west view, repeated time after time... forgetting the REAL events."

My wife and I have been in touch with our Relatives in both Georgia and South Ossetia almost every day since the war. So you suggest that both my South Ossetian and Georgian relatives are lying to us. Well I can live with that then. Guess it is in the nature of the South Ossetian and Georgian people to lie then. If you want you can ask me for their phonenumbers so you can make some more balanced blogpost about the situation there.

Just for curiosity. Can I ask your opinion about the Abkhazian and Ossetian people? And what do you think is the reason that they want to rather join Russia then living together in harmony under the Georgian flag. A serious answer please. An answer like that they are swines that should surrender to Georgian authorities, is not a serious answer.
And a second question. What are your thoughts about Stalin?
And a third question. How old are you?

Thanks


De sá morais a 23 de Agosto de 2008 às 17:58
"He only forgot that there where Russians citizens living there."

I have a number of brazilien and east europe citizens living in my country... Should they claim independence of some province and start a militia? Should they then call military forces of their countries to maintain peace? Dont make me laugh!

"But in Saakashvili's simple mind"

Yep! Putin's mind is much more complex, specially to kill opositors! Don´t make me laugh again!

"My wife and I have been in touch with our Relatives in both Georgia and South Ossetia almost every day since the war"

In Georgia? And they are all pro-russia, I guess... Congratulations! Here we also have some that think we should never had been independent. I call them "vendidos"... An eufemism...

The answer to your first question is simple: You see this war as some kind of freedom war, I see it as a economical motivated war. It´s so... funny that in all your talk you never refer the real issue - the Control of Caspian Energy Resources!!
Do you know what i'm talking about? Your relatives haven´t explained you? Call them!

I'm gonna tell you a little secret: "pipeline that connected Azerbaijan to Turkey, running through Georgia. The pipeline was designed specifically to bypass Russia. More oil and natural gas pipelines are scheduled to be built in Georgia."

Psst! Don't tell yout relatives! Ahaha!


About the second question... Stalin was a crazy ditactor/assassin, just like Hitler or Mao! Happy?

Age?! Oh! You think that age is synonym of wisdom! Uhhhh! And studies? And a PhD? Uhhhhh!
Ugh! Let me tell you that stupidity is independent of age, social condition, color or religion!

Age?!?! Uhhh!
AHAHAH!
Thanks...


De Seraphiel a 24 de Agosto de 2008 às 07:34
"I have a number of brazilien and east europe citizens living in my country... Should they claim independence of some province and start a militia?"
- My friend.... You know nothing of what happened here. South Ossetia wanted to be independent long before they got themselves russian passes. They got Russian passes for only a few years ago. Russia has a law that says that they protect Russians wherever in the world they are. In this case Russian citizens where under attack and Russian law says that Russia is allowed to protect their citizens.

"In Georgia? And they are all pro-russia, I guess... Congratulations! Here we also have some that think we should never had been independent."
- My family living in Georgia are not pro Russian, but they are against Saakashvili. Do you remember the events in autumn 2007 in Tbilisi?? Guess not. There where large demonstrations back then against Saakhasvili. Georgians wanted that he would leave office, because Saakhasvili was more interested in investing all the governments money in its army in stead of in a good economy. My family wants to stay independent from Russia and they want to have peace with South Ossetia. But unfortunately the Saakhasvili wants to have South Ossetia and Abkhazia without Ossetians and Abkhazians. That's why these regions rather want to be with Russia, that also has showed not to care about them (using them for their own plans), but at least treats them with more respect, then the Georgian government.

"he Control of Caspian Energy Resources!!
Do you know what i'm talking about?"
- I know what you are talking about. My relatives are not interested in oil. But NATO and the US are off course. That's why Georgia has to join NATO by all means necessary. The US helps with military support, while the EU puts lots of recourses into Georgian economy. For western Europe and the US it is very important that those oil and gas pipes don't come into the hands of those nasty Russians. Well.... they are lucky if Russia was interested in taking control over an extra 1% of the total oil and gas distribution to the west. It had already invaded the whole of Georgia and threw of Saakashvili from the throne. The only interest Russia has is that it stays calm in the caucasus. And off course they are interested in Georgia not joining NATO. That's why they come in with so much (for russia little) force. To show the world that not the US not Western Europe, but Russia can handle the problems in its own backyard.

Then your next statement is off course, why Russia is still in Georgia and not retreating. Well my friend. With Saakashvili putting so much money in its military the last years. There is enough interests from the Russians to take a closer look at all this equipment and destroy or steal as much of it as possible. Both for their own good and to let Georgia be left with a 'normal' amount of weapons.

The way you answered my questions shows me you don't know enough about this matter to write reasonable blog post about it.
You didn't answer my question about the Souht Ossetian and Abkhazian people. You only refer to a freedom war. That means you don't know who the Ossetians and Abkhazians are and you don't know about their history.
In your second answer I would have expected you to at least come up with the fact that Stalin gave Georgian control over South Ossetia and Abkhazia in the Soviet Times. And that that became the start of conflicts that continue until today. So I guess you don't have enough knowledge about the basis for this conflict.

I'm not claming you are stupid. Though you certainly think I am. It is just that I think you haven't got enough knowledge about the history of this region and the events that happened here and are still hapening. I don't expect you to have traveled to this region almost every year as I do to visit my relatives. But I would at least have expected a more balanced view on the matter if you would have known the facts ad history of this region. In stead of thinking that the only truth comes through CNN for example.

I'm looking forward to continue this conversation with you. Not that I want to convince you that you are wrong, but just to make you more interested in this subject.




De sá morais a 24 de Agosto de 2008 às 22:22
" You know nothing of what happened here. South Ossetia wanted to be independent long before they got themselves russian passes. They got Russian passes for only a few years ago. Russia has a law that says that they protect Russians wherever in the world they are. In this case Russian citizens where under attack and Russian law says that Russia is allowed to protect their citizens."

What a nice law! Let me see if I understand because I dont know much... Russian may attack another country to protect russians...
" wherever in the world they are "... I hope it never happens in China, for example... Ehehe!
But do you mean russians or pipelines?
who had a law like that? Hum... The nazis?!

" Do you remember the events in autumn 2007 in Tbilisi?? Guess not."

Do you remember this: "A day after security forces broke up an anti-Putin demonstration in Moscow, dozens of opposition supporters were arrested at a protest rally in St. Petersburg on Sunday, Nov. 26."

or this: Opposition leader Garry Kasparov was detained by police Saturday after he and a couple of hundred supporters attempted to march on Russia's Central Election Commission following a rally in Moscow that drew several thousand people.


Noooo! Only Saakhasvili has oposition! In the whole world, only he has oposition!

You prove nothing with that claim!


"Georgians wanted that he would leave office, because Saakhasvili was more interested in investing all the governments money in its army in stead of in a good economy."

Where the hell do you see that powerfull army???

"My relatives are not interested in oil. But NATO and the US are off course."

And russian isnt? Well you claim to know so much but you only see one side of the story. Always the evil Nato as US...

"The only interest Russia has is that it stays calm in the caucasus."

Yep! the russian goverment is composed os angels as saints!

"in its own backyard."

I guess your talking about an independent country... Backyard! Such an imperialist statement...

"With Saakashvili putting so much money in its military the last years. There is enough interests from the Russians to take a closer look at all this equipment and destroy or steal as much of it as possible. Both for their own good and to let Georgia be left with a 'normal' amount of weapons."

Uhhh! so much money... Yes the F16, and F18 and Abrahams tanks... Give me a break!
A "closer look"? "destroy"? "Steal"? Are we talking about piracy? Barbarians?
Left with a normal amount of weapons???? Are serious? You mean left with no means to defend itself, right??


"The way you answered my questions shows me you don't know enough about this matter to write reasonable blog post about it."

The way you answered my questions, shows me that besides that opinion of relatives and a pro-russia and anti-west vision of the world you are very naif. I know all about stalin and all that mambo jambo, but It has no importance to the present. There are legal ways to obtain independence. The ossetians were used by russia.

"It is just that I think you haven't got enough knowledge about the history of this region and the events that happened here and are still hapening."

well, I think the same of you, in spite of all those travels an relatives.
By the way, where do you live? Inyou dearest Russia, I supose? Or in an evil western country?

"Though you certainly think I am."

No I dont think that! I only think your are stranded in a limited vision of the events.
It´s you who think I dont know history... Well, test me... I will surprise you!

But you wont change my belifes!

"In stead of thinking that the only truth comes through CNN for example."

I dont need CNN. I am an evil european... Not american! We have other sources. But I dont regard Pravda as my main source...

I also dont want to convince you that you are wrong. I would be happy if I could make you see that the world isnt devided in GOOD and EVIL. And that the russians are as BAD or as GOOD as The US. Russia is a superpower, and as all superpowers it tends to be imperialist.
I hope this last statements could bring any kind of reflection to you.



De Seraphiel a 25 de Agosto de 2008 às 05:55
"What a nice law! Let me see if I understand because I dont know much... Russian may attack another country to protect russians... "
- Please read what I'm writing. The russians are allowed to protect their citizens. They haven't attacked Georgia. They are fighting the Georigan army to prevent the Georgian army from killing Russian citizens. If they were attacking Georgia. Tbilisi would be no more. By the way. The US has the same law. So does Norway and I suppose a lot of other countries too.

"Do you remember this: "A day after security forces broke up an anti-Putin demonstration in Moscow, dozens of opposition supporters were arrested at a protest rally in St. Petersburg on Sunday, Nov. 26."

or this: Opposition leader Garry Kasparov was detained by police Saturday after he and a couple of hundred supporters attempted to march on Russia's Central Election Commission following a rally in Moscow that drew several thousand people. "

So..... what have these two events to do with Georgia and South Ossetia? Were those demonstrations because of Putin not caring about the Russian economy and the majority of Russian people? If you are coming with examples, please don't forget to mention how china reacted on the tibetan demonstrations last time.

"Where the hell do you see that powerfull army???"
- I've seen it with my own eyes on TV and in the newpapers. I already gave you the sources that state that Georgia boosted its military recourses from 34 million to 1 billion dollars. But a small country Like georgia with such an excessive military budget is in your eyes pretty normal or even to low.

" guess your talking about an independent country... Backyard! Such an imperialist statement..."
- I'm sorry for that statement, but I guess you know what I mean nevertheless.

"I know all about stalin and all that mambo jambo, but It has no importance to the present. There are legal ways to obtain independence. The ossetians were used by russia."
- From 1992 to the present Georgia, Russia and South Ossetia Abkhazia have had continues talks about how to solve the independence issue. In 2004 Saakashvili prommised the Georgian people to get back control over Abkhazia and South Ossetia. There have been extensive talks after that. But time after time the Georgian government wants the Ossetian and Abkhaz people to give up their culture. To stop talking and learning their language. Saakashvili wants to have Abkhazia and South Ossetia, but without the Abkhaz and Ossetian people. If Saakashvili had respected them as the Russians 'sort of' do. South Ossetia and Abkhazia would have peacefully co-exist for years already. As I said, my relatives are both Ossetian and Georgian. Something that Saakashvili sees as a very, very bad thing.

"I know all about stalin and all that mambo jambo, but It has no importance to the present. "
- I'm sorry, but it is. Stalin is the source of the problems you see today in the caucasus and other parts of Russia and the former Soviet Union.

"The ossetians were used by russia."
- On this one I agree with you. They are still used by Russia and will be for many years. But for the Ossetians it is saver to be used by Russia then to be killed by Georgia.

"By the way, where do you live? Inyou dearest Russia, I supose? Or in an evil western country?"
- I'm from an anti Russian Country (Holland), living in a Russian-sceptic country (Norway).

"Russia is a superpower, and as all superpowers it tends to be imperialist.
I hope this last statements could bring any kind of reflection to you." I never said that Russia is the saviour here. I agree with you that Russia is having its own plans in this matter as well. But your blog post is about that everybody should support Georgia because they got attacked by Russia. I totally disagree with you on that one. Because Georgia isn't the democracy or the holy good country as it tries to show us. Georgian democracy currently is best characterized not as democracy, but instead ethnic nationalism. Though Georgia is on its way it is long from any western european country when it comes to democracy.

So in stead of supporting Georgia and goig blind on their propaganda like the western media you could take a more balanced view. Like this guy: http://i1.no/066f/


De sá morais a 25 de Agosto de 2008 às 14:39
"The russians are allowed to protect their citizens. They haven't attacked Georgia."
That what I have said: the have the right to attack other countries... They haven't?! So the military forces in Georgian ground were from... Luxembourg?

"They are fighting the Georigan army to prevent the Georgian army from killing Russian citizens. If they were attacking Georgia."

Sorry?! that seems the headline of some Russian pro-Putin newspaper! Totally nonsense! that only happens in hollywood movies. Let's be serious!

"So..... what have these two events to do with Georgia and South Ossetia?"

just to show you that the georgian president isn't the only man in the world with opposition!

"Were those demonstrations because of Putin not caring about the Russian economy and the majority of Russian people?"

No, those were demonstrations because of Putin's tirany...

"please don't forget to mention how china reacted on the tibetan demonstrations last time."

I invite you to see the rest of my blog.

"I've seen it with my own eyes on TV and in the newpapers."

Are you seeing the right war?!

Main Battle Tank
Type Nbr.
T-72B1 59
T-72M 75
T-72AB 71
T-55AM 40

Light Armoured Vehicle
Type Nbr.
BMP-1 80
BMP-2 120
MT-LB 64

Wheeled Armoured and vehicle
Type Nbr.
BTR-80 75
BRDM-2 17
Otokar Cobra 100

Missile System and Vehicle
Type Nbr.
Multiple Rocket Launcher System
M-87 Orkan 4

RM-70 48
BM-21 Grad 120
M63 Plamen 12
LAR-160 15
Anti Air Defence Missiles
BUK-M1 15
S-125 38
9K33 Osa

Helicopter
Type Nbr.
Mi-35 Hind 1
Mi-24P Hind 19
Mi-24V Hind 21
Mi-14 18
Mi-8 Hip 16
Bell-212 6
UH-1H 40
Mi-2 2

"I'm sorry, but it is. Stalin is the source of the problems you see today in the caucasus and other parts of Russia and the former Soviet Union."

I know. But we shouldn't use the past as an excuse. The human race should have been smarter by now...

Holland?! Nice country! I went there some years ago. Good friendly people. Norway... I haven't been there yet, but I would like to go. The country of the famous codfish!

"I never said that Russia is the saviour here. I agree with you that Russia is having its own plans in this matter as well. But your blog post is about that everybody should support Georgia because they got attacked by Russia. I totally disagree with you on that one. Because Georgia isn't the democracy or the holy good country as it tries to show us. Georgian democracy currently is best characterized not as democracy, but instead ethnic nationalism."

I could say the same about Russia... And I now Russia attacked Georgia...

Well, to maintain this discussion clear ( without personnal sting from each side ) and with his focus on the real issue, I will bring two points:

- I believe the real concern of Russia is to maintain the monopoly of oil to western europe. You refer to it as a marginal issue, but it is not. Specially if we consider that "the project also constitutes an important leg of the East-West energy corridor, gaining Turkey greater geopolitical importance. The BTC pipeline also supports Georgia's independence from Russian influence. Former President Eduard Shevardnadze, one of the architects and initiators of the project, saw the construction of the pipeline through Georgian territory as a certain guarantee for the country's future economic and political security and stability." I know about the 1% you have refered. But let me remind you that that 1% is only a first stage! And what about the Kazakh-Caspian Transportation System? To think that Russia attacked only to protect his "citizens" is a very naif way of seeing the world. - as naif as thinking that US went to Irak only to free the people there form an evil dictator. Russia steamed the Ossetians to war, knowing the Georgian response.

- If the Georgian army was really equipped with western equipment ( thats a lie, as I already show above ) two things might have happened:

* the russian would think twice before attacking.
* the georgians would have been able to fight back, instead of retreating.

The western military equipment is far superior to the russian ( almost all from Soviet times ). This was proved on several ocasions.


De sá morais a 25 de Agosto de 2008 às 14:45
"So in stead of supporting Georgia and goig blind on their propaganda like the western media you could take a more balanced view. "

Again I could tell you the same. Let me tell you that I don't care for propagand but Im very stuburn - and you, my friend, you look as obstinate as myself.

Russia and Georgia are taking many minutes from my lunch time... Eheheh! Here I blame both!


De Seraphiel a 26 de Agosto de 2008 às 07:02
"just to show you that the georgian president isn't the only man in the world with opposition! "
Every president in the world has opponents. Some have more then half the world against them.

"No, those were demonstrations because of Putin's tirany..."
Hmmm this will make an interesting discussion. Could you please explain Putin's tirany?

"Are you seeing the right war?!

Main Battle Tank
Type Nbr.
T-72B1 59 ...."

It looks like the list from wikipedia. Didn't you teacher told you yet that though a great recourse wikipedia can not be trusted totally. And why on earth does a country want to put its whole weapon arsenal wide open on internet? Right... they accept a list, but off course not the full list. I see I have to enter the American and Israeli weapons in this list.... Two weeks later. Woops someone deleted them. So naive you are.

Here is a nice discussion: http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread382282/pg1
And a nice link here too: http://tinyurl.com/6ach8p

"I know. But we shouldn't use the past as an excuse. The human race should have been smarter by now..."
- who is using the past as an excuse? Not me. It is stalin who divided the Soviet Union in that particular way. A way that caused problems back then that still continue now. The fighting and tensions between Georgia, South Ossetia and Abkhazia have never stopped since 1990. They were only held under control by Georigan and Russian peacekeepers.

"I could say the same about Russia..."
- please find the defenition of ethnic nationalism and then find out that this does not apply to Russia at all.

"And now Russia attacked Georgia..."
- Oh? Out of the blue? Without any reason? Didn't you read the news from the 7th to the 8th of august? You did not get with you the attack from Georgia on the Ossetian people and the killing of Russian citizens including Russian peacekeepers? Isn't the attack from Russia a simple response to the events? I've seen other countries in particular one in the recent years do more aggressive things, that the world was totally okay with.

"I believe the real concern of Russia is to maintain the monopoly of oil to western europe. You refer to it as a marginal issue, but it is not." I can't inmagine Russia being strongly interested in 1% of the oil/gas transport to Europe why they have the other 80-90%. Then I think more that it is in Russia's interest to keep Georgia out of NATO. Besides that, the oil/gas line you are talking about doesn't even go through South Ossetia nor Abkhazia. And as you see now. The only thing Russia is doing in Georgia is seasing and destroying military Georgian military installations. If they were interested in the oil and Georgia itself they would have taken Tbilisi and got rid of Saakashvili already.

"If the Georgian army was really equipped with western equipment ( thats a lie, as I already show above ) two things might have happened:"
First off al read this article from a while ago: http://tinyurl.com/6nogho
Find the part that says. At the center of the report was the fate of an Israeli-made Hermes 450 drone.
Oops that is a lye ass well off course...

The way the Russians react on the US and NATO. Even wanting to freeze all contact with NATO doesn't show that they are afraid. They look rather self confident. Probably because they are not planning on aggressive moves against NATO and the US?

With the Russian duma voting for the independence for Abkhazia and South Ossetia. It becomes more clear what the REAL issue is here. To keep this region stable. There has been fighting here since 1990 that got out of control August 7th. The fighting will not stop until both Regions are detached from Georgia. My guess is Russia declares them independent then will answer their request a few months or years later to become part of Russia. So that Russia technically did not annex two Georgian regions but two independent nations. After that the Oil-Gas line lies dangerously close to the Russian border and Georgia has to move it further away out of reach from the ''greedy'' hands of Russia. Georgia becomes eventually a NATO member. And everybody is happy.


De sá morais a 26 de Agosto de 2008 às 21:28
If you cant see Putin's tirany, you should look deeper. But we are looking the other side its hard to see what hapens in front of our face...

"It looks like the list from wikipedia. Didn't you teacher told you yet that though a great recourse wikipedia can not be trusted totally. And why on earth does a country want to put its whole weapon arsenal wide open on internet? Right... they accept a list, but off course not the full list. I see I have to enter the American and Israeli weapons in this list.... Two weeks later. Woops someone deleted them. So naive you are."

Looks?! But it isnt! Your teacher should told you to be shure before say something. Yep the US and Israeli weapons... LOL! I saw lots of F-18 and Merkava fighiting! Give a break!

I present you facts, you call me naive. But its you who is seeing things! I call that fantasy!

"Israeli-made Hermes 450 drone"

WOW! A drone! what a powerfull weapon?! How many T72 can a drone destroy? Thousands!!!! LOL!

"Besides that, the oil/gas line you are talking about doesn't even go through South Ossetia nor Abkhazia. And as you see now. The only thing Russia is doing in Georgia is seasing and destroying military Georgian military installations."

naive!
By this "weapon discussion" is very clear that you will never accept the TRUTH. You only want to express your hate against NATO as US.

This discussion is OVER!


De Seraphiel a 27 de Agosto de 2008 às 06:38
So the following article is also seeing things?
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20080826_the_cost_of_saakashvilis_folly/

A very interesting and objective article.
Look for the part that says: Even though the Russians destroyed all that was left of the new American military equipment and installations recently given to Georgia, even Saakashvili is unlikely to want to start up the war again—at least just now, unless Cheney is going to bring with him the 82nd Airborne Division and the 6th Fleet.

The guy writhing this is an american who has written several books about American foreign policy. So you suggest that what stands on wikipedia is far more reliable then what an expert has to say about it. Or do you claim that Mr. William Pfaf is seeing things too?

I don''t hate NATO nor the US. Both have acted the only way they could. Though I must say that I'm getting more and more sceptical about the US, placing rockets in Europe and putting money and training in other countries armies. The US has done that throughout history. And the end result has until now been that they at the end have gone to war against those countries. Russia is now doing the same thing. Placing Russian military equipment in South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Off course the international community does not allow this. Only the US can do such things.... So that's why I'm skeptical about the US.

But that's a different sotry. The point here is that unlike in kosovo. Russia managed to act in stead of doing it the Western Euorpean way with weeks of talking. Because of Russias actions the lives of most Ossetians and Abkhazians are spared.

I'm sorry to see you don't want to discuss this issue any further. But I appreciate the time you spend on this discussion. Thank you.


De A.Torres a 29 de Agosto de 2008 às 23:38
The [Abkhaz] separatist forces committed widespread atrocities against the Georgian civilian population, killing many women, children, and elderly, capturing some as hostages and torturing others ... they also killed large numbers of Georgian civilians who remained behind in Abkhaz-seized territory.U.S. State Department, Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for 1993, February 1994, pp. 877, 881.

In 1992, the political situation in Abkhazia changed into the military confrontation between Georgian government and Abkhaz separatists. The fighting escalated as Georgian Interior and Defence Ministry forces along with police units reached the city of Gudauta. Separatists started to retreat from Georgian held territories. Under the alleged aid from Russia, they managed to re-arm and organize “volunteer battalions” from North Caucasus. In early 1991, Abkhaz separatist forces and their allies started their counterattack on Georgian held-positions. Abkhazia was known for its multi-ethnic population, which included Georgians (46% in 1989), Russians, Greeks, Armenians, Ukrainians, Abkhaz, etc. Ethnic Georgians living in Abkhazia started to organize their own battalions and resistance movements which inflicted a significant blow the separatist advance. Confronted with about 240,000 ethnic Georgians who were unwilling to leave their homes, Abkhaz side started the process of ethnic cleansing in order to expel and eliminate the Georgian ethnic population of Abkhazia. US State Department, Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for 1993, February 1994, pp. 120

The total number of killed in the process of ethnic cleansing ranges from 10,000 to 30,000, which does not include the numbers of missing, wounded and tortured people. More than 200,000 ethnic Georgians were expelled from their homes. The ethnic cleansing also included Russians, Abkhaz, Armenians, Greeks and other minor ethnic groups living in Abkhazia. More than 20,000 houses owned by ethnic Georgians were destroyed. Hundreds of Schools, kindergartens, churches, hospitals, historical monuments were pillaged and destroyed.

Error creating thumbnail:
Ethnic Georgians flee from Abkhaz attackAfter the end of the war, the government of Georgia, Hague War Crimes Tribunal, United Nations and OSCE, as well as the refugees themselves, began to investigate and gather facts about the allegations of genocide, ethnic cleansing and deportation which was conducted by the Abkhaz side during the conflict. In 1994 and again in 1996 the OSCE during the Budapest summit gave its official recognition of ethnic cleansing of Georgians in Abkhazia and condemned the “perpetrators of war crimes committed during the conflict.” From the Resolution of the OSCE Budapest Summit, December 6, 1994

On March 2006, the Hague War Crimes Tribunal announced that it had reviewed all the documents submitted by the Georgian side. After a full-scale investigation, the Tribunal concluded that it would prosecute and start hearings against the campaign of ethnic cleansing, war-crimes and terror inflicted on ethnic Georgians in Abkhazia.

Reports of atrocities and war-crimes are still reaching the international community (especially the United Nations) from the Gali region. According to UN observers, the situation there is alarming.

"A terrible find has been made by the local residents of the mountains of Abkhazia, near the spot where clashes with the sea-born landing troops (attempting to cut the Ochamchire-Sokhumi highway) had taken place..Pieces of a human body were hanging on long wires from tree..Those were remains of two skinned Georgian men..It is not only soldiers that are killed. In the same woods, near one village there I found a corpse of a pregnant Georgian women. She had been raped and disemboweled."Dmitry Kholodov, Moscow journalist covering the Conflict, 1992


De Davik a 22 de Agosto de 2008 às 09:49
I do not support Georgia, nor any country willing to attack civilians, and even it's own citizens. Georgia is not a democracy, and Russia has just as much authority to impose peace through military force as NATO.


De sá morais a 22 de Agosto de 2008 às 12:59
Georgia was fighting against a militia in its own country. They have all the right to do so. Russia has no authority because they only want to destroy the competiton to their gas. The defence of South Ossetians is a big lie..
The killing of 2000 ossetian civilians was only russian propaganda.

And do you call that invasion "impose peace"?



yeah!


De reaper a 22 de Agosto de 2008 às 13:51
The United States and Europe ignored this brewing crisis for too long. Bush wanted to play all sides - flattering Georgia's president, Mikheil Saakashvili, as Saakashvili baited Moscow and looking the other way as Putin bullied his neighbors. (U.S. officials insist that they warned the Georgian leader not to fall into Moscow's trap by sending troops into South Ossetia - but they weren't persuasive enough.)

Even after Russian bombers began pounding Georgia last week, Bush seemed to hope that his old pal Putin was just blowing off steam. The Europeans, who are far too reliant on Russian energy supplies, were even more in denial. On Wednesday, some European leaders, including Germany's foreign minister, were still reluctant to blame Russia.


SUPPORT GEORGIA AGAINST THE CZARIST FASCIST PUTIN!


De Anónimo a 22 de Agosto de 2008 às 13:58
We can soon expect to see those heinous Lithuanians and Estonians begin to persecute those defenseless Russians left behind by the Soviet collapse. Then the heroic Russian Peoples Army will once again engage in a war of liberation.

The Russians need to leave Georgia soon, before they begin to meet resistance. We all remember how the Russians fled Afghanistan. Able to take a punch, huh? Baloney.


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