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“Georgia did not attack Russia, Russia is attacking Georgia. They say they were protecting their citizens but we heard the same argument from Nazi Germany in taking the Sudetenland in 1938. Formally, Russia says it is protecting its citizens but in reality it is beginning a war.”

publicado por sá morais às 13:57
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19 comentários:
De sá morais a 25 de Agosto de 2008 às 14:39
"The russians are allowed to protect their citizens. They haven't attacked Georgia."
That what I have said: the have the right to attack other countries... They haven't?! So the military forces in Georgian ground were from... Luxembourg?

"They are fighting the Georigan army to prevent the Georgian army from killing Russian citizens. If they were attacking Georgia."

Sorry?! that seems the headline of some Russian pro-Putin newspaper! Totally nonsense! that only happens in hollywood movies. Let's be serious!

"So..... what have these two events to do with Georgia and South Ossetia?"

just to show you that the georgian president isn't the only man in the world with opposition!

"Were those demonstrations because of Putin not caring about the Russian economy and the majority of Russian people?"

No, those were demonstrations because of Putin's tirany...

"please don't forget to mention how china reacted on the tibetan demonstrations last time."

I invite you to see the rest of my blog.

"I've seen it with my own eyes on TV and in the newpapers."

Are you seeing the right war?!

Main Battle Tank
Type Nbr.
T-72B1 59
T-72M 75
T-72AB 71
T-55AM 40

Light Armoured Vehicle
Type Nbr.
BMP-1 80
BMP-2 120
MT-LB 64

Wheeled Armoured and vehicle
Type Nbr.
BTR-80 75
BRDM-2 17
Otokar Cobra 100

Missile System and Vehicle
Type Nbr.
Multiple Rocket Launcher System
M-87 Orkan 4

RM-70 48
BM-21 Grad 120
M63 Plamen 12
LAR-160 15
Anti Air Defence Missiles
BUK-M1 15
S-125 38
9K33 Osa

Helicopter
Type Nbr.
Mi-35 Hind 1
Mi-24P Hind 19
Mi-24V Hind 21
Mi-14 18
Mi-8 Hip 16
Bell-212 6
UH-1H 40
Mi-2 2

"I'm sorry, but it is. Stalin is the source of the problems you see today in the caucasus and other parts of Russia and the former Soviet Union."

I know. But we shouldn't use the past as an excuse. The human race should have been smarter by now...

Holland?! Nice country! I went there some years ago. Good friendly people. Norway... I haven't been there yet, but I would like to go. The country of the famous codfish!

"I never said that Russia is the saviour here. I agree with you that Russia is having its own plans in this matter as well. But your blog post is about that everybody should support Georgia because they got attacked by Russia. I totally disagree with you on that one. Because Georgia isn't the democracy or the holy good country as it tries to show us. Georgian democracy currently is best characterized not as democracy, but instead ethnic nationalism."

I could say the same about Russia... And I now Russia attacked Georgia...

Well, to maintain this discussion clear ( without personnal sting from each side ) and with his focus on the real issue, I will bring two points:

- I believe the real concern of Russia is to maintain the monopoly of oil to western europe. You refer to it as a marginal issue, but it is not. Specially if we consider that "the project also constitutes an important leg of the East-West energy corridor, gaining Turkey greater geopolitical importance. The BTC pipeline also supports Georgia's independence from Russian influence. Former President Eduard Shevardnadze, one of the architects and initiators of the project, saw the construction of the pipeline through Georgian territory as a certain guarantee for the country's future economic and political security and stability." I know about the 1% you have refered. But let me remind you that that 1% is only a first stage! And what about the Kazakh-Caspian Transportation System? To think that Russia attacked only to protect his "citizens" is a very naif way of seeing the world. - as naif as thinking that US went to Irak only to free the people there form an evil dictator. Russia steamed the Ossetians to war, knowing the Georgian response.

- If the Georgian army was really equipped with western equipment ( thats a lie, as I already show above ) two things might have happened:

* the russian would think twice before attacking.
* the georgians would have been able to fight back, instead of retreating.

The western military equipment is far superior to the russian ( almost all from Soviet times ). This was proved on several ocasions.


De sá morais a 25 de Agosto de 2008 às 14:45
"So in stead of supporting Georgia and goig blind on their propaganda like the western media you could take a more balanced view. "

Again I could tell you the same. Let me tell you that I don't care for propagand but Im very stuburn - and you, my friend, you look as obstinate as myself.

Russia and Georgia are taking many minutes from my lunch time... Eheheh! Here I blame both!


De Seraphiel a 26 de Agosto de 2008 às 07:02
"just to show you that the georgian president isn't the only man in the world with opposition! "
Every president in the world has opponents. Some have more then half the world against them.

"No, those were demonstrations because of Putin's tirany..."
Hmmm this will make an interesting discussion. Could you please explain Putin's tirany?

"Are you seeing the right war?!

Main Battle Tank
Type Nbr.
T-72B1 59 ...."

It looks like the list from wikipedia. Didn't you teacher told you yet that though a great recourse wikipedia can not be trusted totally. And why on earth does a country want to put its whole weapon arsenal wide open on internet? Right... they accept a list, but off course not the full list. I see I have to enter the American and Israeli weapons in this list.... Two weeks later. Woops someone deleted them. So naive you are.

Here is a nice discussion: http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread382282/pg1
And a nice link here too: http://tinyurl.com/6ach8p

"I know. But we shouldn't use the past as an excuse. The human race should have been smarter by now..."
- who is using the past as an excuse? Not me. It is stalin who divided the Soviet Union in that particular way. A way that caused problems back then that still continue now. The fighting and tensions between Georgia, South Ossetia and Abkhazia have never stopped since 1990. They were only held under control by Georigan and Russian peacekeepers.

"I could say the same about Russia..."
- please find the defenition of ethnic nationalism and then find out that this does not apply to Russia at all.

"And now Russia attacked Georgia..."
- Oh? Out of the blue? Without any reason? Didn't you read the news from the 7th to the 8th of august? You did not get with you the attack from Georgia on the Ossetian people and the killing of Russian citizens including Russian peacekeepers? Isn't the attack from Russia a simple response to the events? I've seen other countries in particular one in the recent years do more aggressive things, that the world was totally okay with.

"I believe the real concern of Russia is to maintain the monopoly of oil to western europe. You refer to it as a marginal issue, but it is not." I can't inmagine Russia being strongly interested in 1% of the oil/gas transport to Europe why they have the other 80-90%. Then I think more that it is in Russia's interest to keep Georgia out of NATO. Besides that, the oil/gas line you are talking about doesn't even go through South Ossetia nor Abkhazia. And as you see now. The only thing Russia is doing in Georgia is seasing and destroying military Georgian military installations. If they were interested in the oil and Georgia itself they would have taken Tbilisi and got rid of Saakashvili already.

"If the Georgian army was really equipped with western equipment ( thats a lie, as I already show above ) two things might have happened:"
First off al read this article from a while ago: http://tinyurl.com/6nogho
Find the part that says. At the center of the report was the fate of an Israeli-made Hermes 450 drone.
Oops that is a lye ass well off course...

The way the Russians react on the US and NATO. Even wanting to freeze all contact with NATO doesn't show that they are afraid. They look rather self confident. Probably because they are not planning on aggressive moves against NATO and the US?

With the Russian duma voting for the independence for Abkhazia and South Ossetia. It becomes more clear what the REAL issue is here. To keep this region stable. There has been fighting here since 1990 that got out of control August 7th. The fighting will not stop until both Regions are detached from Georgia. My guess is Russia declares them independent then will answer their request a few months or years later to become part of Russia. So that Russia technically did not annex two Georgian regions but two independent nations. After that the Oil-Gas line lies dangerously close to the Russian border and Georgia has to move it further away out of reach from the ''greedy'' hands of Russia. Georgia becomes eventually a NATO member. And everybody is happy.


De sá morais a 26 de Agosto de 2008 às 21:28
If you cant see Putin's tirany, you should look deeper. But we are looking the other side its hard to see what hapens in front of our face...

"It looks like the list from wikipedia. Didn't you teacher told you yet that though a great recourse wikipedia can not be trusted totally. And why on earth does a country want to put its whole weapon arsenal wide open on internet? Right... they accept a list, but off course not the full list. I see I have to enter the American and Israeli weapons in this list.... Two weeks later. Woops someone deleted them. So naive you are."

Looks?! But it isnt! Your teacher should told you to be shure before say something. Yep the US and Israeli weapons... LOL! I saw lots of F-18 and Merkava fighiting! Give a break!

I present you facts, you call me naive. But its you who is seeing things! I call that fantasy!

"Israeli-made Hermes 450 drone"

WOW! A drone! what a powerfull weapon?! How many T72 can a drone destroy? Thousands!!!! LOL!

"Besides that, the oil/gas line you are talking about doesn't even go through South Ossetia nor Abkhazia. And as you see now. The only thing Russia is doing in Georgia is seasing and destroying military Georgian military installations."

naive!
By this "weapon discussion" is very clear that you will never accept the TRUTH. You only want to express your hate against NATO as US.

This discussion is OVER!


De Seraphiel a 27 de Agosto de 2008 às 06:38
So the following article is also seeing things?
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20080826_the_cost_of_saakashvilis_folly/

A very interesting and objective article.
Look for the part that says: Even though the Russians destroyed all that was left of the new American military equipment and installations recently given to Georgia, even Saakashvili is unlikely to want to start up the war again—at least just now, unless Cheney is going to bring with him the 82nd Airborne Division and the 6th Fleet.

The guy writhing this is an american who has written several books about American foreign policy. So you suggest that what stands on wikipedia is far more reliable then what an expert has to say about it. Or do you claim that Mr. William Pfaf is seeing things too?

I don''t hate NATO nor the US. Both have acted the only way they could. Though I must say that I'm getting more and more sceptical about the US, placing rockets in Europe and putting money and training in other countries armies. The US has done that throughout history. And the end result has until now been that they at the end have gone to war against those countries. Russia is now doing the same thing. Placing Russian military equipment in South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Off course the international community does not allow this. Only the US can do such things.... So that's why I'm skeptical about the US.

But that's a different sotry. The point here is that unlike in kosovo. Russia managed to act in stead of doing it the Western Euorpean way with weeks of talking. Because of Russias actions the lives of most Ossetians and Abkhazians are spared.

I'm sorry to see you don't want to discuss this issue any further. But I appreciate the time you spend on this discussion. Thank you.


De A.Torres a 29 de Agosto de 2008 às 23:38
The [Abkhaz] separatist forces committed widespread atrocities against the Georgian civilian population, killing many women, children, and elderly, capturing some as hostages and torturing others ... they also killed large numbers of Georgian civilians who remained behind in Abkhaz-seized territory.U.S. State Department, Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for 1993, February 1994, pp. 877, 881.

In 1992, the political situation in Abkhazia changed into the military confrontation between Georgian government and Abkhaz separatists. The fighting escalated as Georgian Interior and Defence Ministry forces along with police units reached the city of Gudauta. Separatists started to retreat from Georgian held territories. Under the alleged aid from Russia, they managed to re-arm and organize “volunteer battalions” from North Caucasus. In early 1991, Abkhaz separatist forces and their allies started their counterattack on Georgian held-positions. Abkhazia was known for its multi-ethnic population, which included Georgians (46% in 1989), Russians, Greeks, Armenians, Ukrainians, Abkhaz, etc. Ethnic Georgians living in Abkhazia started to organize their own battalions and resistance movements which inflicted a significant blow the separatist advance. Confronted with about 240,000 ethnic Georgians who were unwilling to leave their homes, Abkhaz side started the process of ethnic cleansing in order to expel and eliminate the Georgian ethnic population of Abkhazia. US State Department, Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for 1993, February 1994, pp. 120

The total number of killed in the process of ethnic cleansing ranges from 10,000 to 30,000, which does not include the numbers of missing, wounded and tortured people. More than 200,000 ethnic Georgians were expelled from their homes. The ethnic cleansing also included Russians, Abkhaz, Armenians, Greeks and other minor ethnic groups living in Abkhazia. More than 20,000 houses owned by ethnic Georgians were destroyed. Hundreds of Schools, kindergartens, churches, hospitals, historical monuments were pillaged and destroyed.

Error creating thumbnail:
Ethnic Georgians flee from Abkhaz attackAfter the end of the war, the government of Georgia, Hague War Crimes Tribunal, United Nations and OSCE, as well as the refugees themselves, began to investigate and gather facts about the allegations of genocide, ethnic cleansing and deportation which was conducted by the Abkhaz side during the conflict. In 1994 and again in 1996 the OSCE during the Budapest summit gave its official recognition of ethnic cleansing of Georgians in Abkhazia and condemned the “perpetrators of war crimes committed during the conflict.” From the Resolution of the OSCE Budapest Summit, December 6, 1994

On March 2006, the Hague War Crimes Tribunal announced that it had reviewed all the documents submitted by the Georgian side. After a full-scale investigation, the Tribunal concluded that it would prosecute and start hearings against the campaign of ethnic cleansing, war-crimes and terror inflicted on ethnic Georgians in Abkhazia.

Reports of atrocities and war-crimes are still reaching the international community (especially the United Nations) from the Gali region. According to UN observers, the situation there is alarming.

"A terrible find has been made by the local residents of the mountains of Abkhazia, near the spot where clashes with the sea-born landing troops (attempting to cut the Ochamchire-Sokhumi highway) had taken place..Pieces of a human body were hanging on long wires from tree..Those were remains of two skinned Georgian men..It is not only soldiers that are killed. In the same woods, near one village there I found a corpse of a pregnant Georgian women. She had been raped and disemboweled."Dmitry Kholodov, Moscow journalist covering the Conflict, 1992


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